Any news on the retro material?

[mongo30]

I have been interested in getting pads that look "old school" for awhile now, and I read the posts about the retro material. Sounds like the stuff I want, but no new word as to status of said material. I was thinking about pads and gloves in a lighter leather color, but open to ideas. Just a 38 yr old trying to relive the old glory days, I guess.

[Scott Battram]

We have about 20 different colours available, the problem is this stuff is much more expensive than the Jenpro or Buckey Material since its a natural product, so this type of pad will end up costing 200 - 250 more. I need to make a couple of calls to check on the buckey material as well.

[Eagle85]

please keep us updated when you know more

[cujo312]

being a natural product, can this new retro material as durable and water proof as jenpro?

[Scott Battram]

Well Natural leather on goalie pads used to back in the day outlive the Jenpro materials! How many sets of 10 year old Jenpro pads do you see out there that dont look kinda beat! Of course, because its natural, you would need to treat it to help repel the water!

[Law Goalie]

So presumably a somewhat regular (once every 10 icetimes?) application of SnoSeal (or a better leather conditioner?) would keep the new leathers happy.

Frankly, for $250 and a little elbow grease, that's a pretty damn good deal.

[Scott Battram]

Exactly...

I tell you there is some nice stuff in the collection of leathers..... Ostrich skin anyone for pads????

[Punisher]

Exactly...

I tell you there is some nice stuff in the collection of leathers..... Ostrich skin anyone for pads????


Are you calling me out on a dare ?

Because i will, you know i will. :p

pun.

[Scott Battram]

Will have some RETRO stuff in tomorrow, another set of sample swatches came today and I have hit the goldmine... The material I have found actually has a leather grain to it, comes in 60 colours and unless I told you it wasn't leather you couldn't smell, you would never know.. best thing, its water resistant and is abrasion tested at 200,000 rubs with one of those motorized machines for testing the strengths of fabrics...

We will be making a full set of this, with some Jenpro used as well in the next week or so.

[Law Goalie]

Wow. I cannot wait to see this stuff.

How does standard Jenpro (and weave, for that matter) compare to 200K 'rubs' on the abrasion test?

[Scott Battram]

I would need to look that information up, but for some reason I think it may be close to that number...

[Scott Battram]

JEN-PRO Abbrasion tests: ASTM D 3884 / Exceeds 1550 Cycles

NEW MATERIAL FOR RETRO: ASTM D 4157 / 200,000 Cycles. (Double rub)



JEN-PRO Tear Strength: ASTM D 2261

NEW MATERIAL FOR RETRO: ASTM D 5733

ASTM - International standards testing for all types of materials.

[Gregan]

Is this stuff more expensive?

[Scott Battram]

Yes, its quite expensive... people think Jenpro is steep... you dont want to know on this stuff! haha

[Gregan]

So you're obviously going to upcharge to use this material...

Is it heavier?! It's gotta have a draw back! Or is it one of those new fangled modern things where it's just plain better in every way possible? :)

[Punisher]

what kind of upcharge would we be talking about if i would take the whole pad in this retro stuff mixed with a little black on the sides.

Pun.

[Scott Battram]

It is actually lighter in weight. But I will likely want to use it with a backing material to give it not as soft a feel when used with a backing it has a more Jenpro like feel.

Yes there would be an upcharge on the material, at this time I am not sure how much of an upcharge there will be, alot would depend on how the material is used on the gear, many people ask for jenpro gussetts etc when doing retro, so in essence, only the face and vertical rolls on a pad would be made from this new stuff...

[HotBranch!]

Two quick questions Scott:

1 - Does this new material have a name?

2 - Do the colors of the new material match the colors of the Jenpro?

I'm thinking a combo of the two materials on my next set, with the new material on the high wear/abrasion areas. If the new material lasts longer than what my 3500s are made from, then I may be buried with my next set of goalie gear.

One quick extra question: would there be a benefit to using the new material on gloves? I know that their wear and abrasion is totally different from pads, but I have found that the trim on the pocket of my Vaughn 1950 trapper started to wear through after ~5 years, and was pretty much done after 12 years (it's being held together with Jenpro scraps and some duct tape)

[Gregan]

12 years! :eek: Damn...

I doubt that Scott will want to give up the name of the new material just yet. Having this material gives him an edge on his competitors.

[Scott Battram]

Two quick questions Scott:

1 - Does this new material have a name?

Yes it has a name, but I am not saying!

2 - Do the colors of the new material match the colors of the Jenpro?

Some do.. these are more of lets say.... "designer colours" rather than colours to match hockey teams... there are several colours of blue as well, I know in the past that people have asked for baby blue etc.. this lineup has all of them... Purples, Reds, Greens all kinds of different colours, The natural leather colours are available in about 10 different colours, the one I think best mimics the old leather colour is really nice, we are building gloves up right now with this material and it clearly is 100 times better than Bucky, this stuff doesnt scratch or change colour when wet.


I'm thinking a combo of the two materials on my next set, with the new material on the high wear/abrasion areas. If the new material lasts longer than what my 3500s are made from, then I may be buried with my next set of goalie gear.

I think the combination of materials will work well, as this set of gloves will show.

One quick extra question: would there be a benefit to using the new material on gloves? I know that their wear and abrasion is totally different from pads, but I have found that the trim on the pocket of my Vaughn 1950 trapper started to wear through after ~5 years, and was pretty much done after 12 years (it's being held together with Jenpro scraps and some duct tape)


Again the testing is done in a lab, not on the ice, so the real test will be on the gear itself in playing conditions, this customer isnt particularly too concerned with long term durability as he said he changes gear every year or so... so even the Bucky would have been fine for him, but I wanted to find something that looks better for him...and as a result did, and tests in the lab seem to show it will wear better as well... I did some unscientific cut tests today, and both Jenpro and this material seemed to slice with a razor under the similar pressure, again not scientific by any means...

[Scott Battram]

The gloves to the retro set are done, the pads will be done on tomorrow or Tuesday... We have a unique twist for the pads as well to give them that authentic set look on flat shinned and thighed pad, as well as to tie in some Black that we have used on the gloves... The customer wanted the white blocker holes, I am going to take photos of the set with both black and white boards installed because I think since the glove is laced with black, and the eyelets are black, as well straps on the pads will be black etc... I feel that the black blocker holes will look the best and this way the customer can switch to black by turning the board of the blocker over if he wants a change!

All I can say is simply, this material makes the Bucky look like a cardboard box... the biggest downfall of the bucky was that it had no grain in it, and it scratches with the slightest touch, this material looks like a worn, oiled or snow sealed leather with a rich look and even better it has a leather feel to it like no other synthetic I have ever seen, I guess it should since its primary market is high end automobile interiors and high end home furnishings.

If I end up in the shop tonight I will get some photos these up on here. I am in awe, especially since I have been trying to find something that works for the retro look for a long time now. Jenpro tried with the TAN, but it just wasnt the right colour and didnt have that authentic real leather look to it. I like this material so well that I am thinking about doing up a set of it to put up on permanent display full time here in the shop!

[Law Goalie]

So will this stuff need to be treated, as previously discussed, or is its inherent water-resistance enough?

And did you find a colour of nylon that matched the new retro stuff well?

[Scott Battram]

No need to treat with anything other than silicone spray based stuff...

Right now we use a brown cordura to match up to the materials, since we are using brown jenpro as a combination with the retro... as well as some black too. I havent tried to find an exact match for this in a cordura but I am sure they will have something there are literally hundreds of cordura colours.

[Punisher]

No need to treat with anything other than silicone spray based stuff...

Right now we use a brown cordura to match up to the materials, since we are using brown jenpro as a combination with the retro... as well as some black too. I havent tried to find an exact match for this in a cordura but I am sure they will have something there are literally hundreds of cordura colours.


so something like this is very possible?

http://www.1972summitseries.com/photos/tretiak2thumb.jpg

or like the old Coopers, with the black side rolls???

or this?
http://www.goaliecards.com/moogds90.jpg
Pun.

[Scott Battram]

I would say that the colour is an almost perfect match to the ones moog is wearing, perhaps even a little darker, almost right between the Tretiak and Moog colours... This stuff is simply the most authentic looking synthetic goal pad colour I have ever seen!
Again, it makes Bucky look like cardboard... when I take photos I will put a piece of bucky up against the material as well as a piece of cardboard! haha

[Scott Battram]

Pictures of this awesome set will be posted here later today for you all to see how nice this material looks!

[Law Goalie]

Sweeeeet...

[Scott Battram]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/sbattram/kristianvintagepads.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/sbattram/kristiangloves.jpg

Notice the cardboard like piece of Bucky below the gloves...

[HotBranch!]

Hot diggity dang!

That's some wicked nice looking gear. The retro look is sweet!

As usual, great work, Scott!

[Scott Battram]

I took photos with the black holes, but when I ship to the customer, I will flip the plastic board over so the white is visible... I personally like the black!!

[Gregan]

Immaculate.

[Punisher]

Sweet mother of goaliegear,

This is going to be my divorce.

thanks a lot Scott.

pun.

[king tut]

Old Skool at its finest..Scott, you did it again!!!!!!! Another awesome set..Now to find some cash..Id have to go with the white on the blocker board..

...Bruno...:D

[Law Goalie]

Even from that distance, the grain in that material looks UNBELIEVABLE.

That is, bar none, the best Vintage set I've ever seen -- and I'm not even that crazy about the overall design. That material sells it.

Frankly, I don't even see the need to use any Jenpro at all - if this stuff is as tough as advertised, it should perform better than Jenpro in terms of sliding and abrasion-resistance, no?

[Scott Battram]

Yes, we could have used all "this material" not telling the name!!! but just to be safe I wanted to use the Jenpro on the wear areas of the pad, in my testing here which is non scientific, it would be fine as it doesnt take on water nor does it scratch or mark as easilly as Jenpro with sandpaper rubbed on it... but the stuff is insanely costly so this is one time when I shake my head and say, "Jenpro is cheaper..." didnt think I would ever hear myself say that!

If you guys think the grain looks good in the photos, you should see it up close! Also there are several other "natural leather" colours in the series, and some of them look good.. but this colour was the best match to oldschool pads ever done in a synthetic!

[Law Goalie]

Like Sean Connery said, "Trade secrets, my son." ;)

I'd be curious to see that material in the same colour, but maybe a shade or two darker - something between the above Vintage set and the 'Chocolate Brown' Jenpro.

[Goatee220]

Scott, you are not a manufacturer - you're an artist!

[king tut]

Scott, I wonder how the blocker would look if you made one without the holes like Bannermans John Brown blocker. I think thats the ticket.I had the same one back in the day..

...Bruno...

[Punisher]

bruno,

i think it would look sick like the andy moog in my previous post. but all brown with just the letters battram on it.

pun.

[Scott Battram]

Personally, I would have rather used no holes on the blocker... but the customer liked the waffle hole look!

I have often said, some of the stuff we make here I hate to see it leave, simply because it is art!! Of course Chakal gets alot of the credit with many of the neat looking images you see on pads, I just make them work on the actual products!

[Punisher]

or bigger holes, they look a little small on this one.

could be the photo and the black plate.

say is this a combination with the chocolate brown jenpro and nylon?

Pun.

[Scott Battram]

The straps on the face are faux as well... just a little something I thought was cool to add to give the pad the finishing touch!

[Punisher]

huh? ...wait? ...what?

i thought those where real and went trough the pads???

man that looks real.

pun.

[Scott Battram]

Glad they looked real to you Pun! Thats why I believe we are the best at doing custom stuff!! Fooled you!! hahha

[Steven]

Crazy looking vintage set. Great work.

[Oddzilla]

Sweet set! Now all you have to do is update your old T-1000 style glove and make it in the retro material!

Well, and make a retro style C/A.

;)

Very nice stuff...

[jeffrey lebowski]

I have lurked here for a long time and this set has brought me out of the woodwork. Scott, this is an amazing set!! I like the idea of the old T-1000 in this material. Instead of the old blue and white square logo with Vaughn, it could say Battram custome made by Scott.:D

[kevinsane]

I'm generally not one to gush over pads' esthetics, but this is the NICEST set I have EVER seen. My wife is about to get a new continuous loop CD in her head.;):p

[Law Goalie]

"Honey, could you pass the Battramflakes."
"What?"
"Oh, I just wanted some branflakes to go with my Battram and eggs."
"Huh?"
"BATTRAM!"
"What the hell are you talking about?"
"Shoot, it's Battram o'clock, I've got to catch the Dundas Bat-tram."
"....."

[Punisher]

"Honey, could you pass the Battramflakes."
"What?"
"Oh, I just wanted some branflakes to go with my Battram and eggs."
"Huh?"
"BATTRAM!"
"What the hell are you talking about?"
"Shoot, it's Battram o'clock, I've got to catch the Dundas Bat-tram."
"....."

LOL

thanks for making me smile this morning.

pun.

[Steven]

Hey Scott, Im semi interested in getting a vintage set. Could you PM me approx. how much a set like this would cost?

Thanks

[Scott Battram]

I still need to get the final costs on the materials we are using, to make this work. But you are basically looking at the Combo price for the pad/glove model (in this case it was a FURY with knee rolls) with Nexus gloves, then the additional cost of the material on top of that price. This stuff is much more expensive than the Jenpro. Also the faux straps on the face and waffle holes would have also upped the cost of this particular combo as those took a bit of time to do, especially the holes in the blocker to make sure everything stays square and on center when working with one circle die to knock out all the holes.

[gunga]

Okay, since I'm looking at getting a new set of gear, can I order a set?

I like the look you have but if it's much cheaper/easier without the holes I can live with that...

Just waiting for the upcharge price and I'll have to give Scott a call to set this all up!


WOw!

[Scott Battram]

These Retro sets can be ordered now, we will be pricing this set on the website shortly, in the meantime, you can send us an email and we can give you pricing.

[NYCGoalie]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/sbattram/kristianvintagepads.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/sbattram/kristiangloves.jpg

I would have gone with black binding around the catch glove, the blocker board perimeter, and the strap guides on the front of the pads. I don't like the use of the darker brown material. Adding the black would have made for an even better "classic" appearence.

Just my opinion. I'd have also changed a couple of other things, but I'll keep quiet on those.

[Jim**]

The straps on the face are faux as well... just a little something I thought was cool to add to give the pad the finishing touch!


Scott,
Can those faux staps be made functional?
I would have never of guessed those werent real, functional straps.

Also can i get the vintage set; without the flaps in the knee roll area and solid vertical roll for a more vintage look?

Heres my dream.. white pad white straps blue vertical outer roll solid, blue knee area. Darren Puppa style. All weave.

Awesome pads!
Jim

[chakal]

here:
http://www.battram.com/images/MAIN-PIC-retro.jpg

[Scott Battram]

I would have gone with black binding around the catch glove, the blocker board perimeter, and the strap guides on the front of the pads. I don't like the use of the darker brown material. Adding the black would have made for an even better "classic" appearence.

Just my opinion. I'd have also changed a couple of other things, but I'll keep quiet on those.

Actually, Black was seldom used on the oldschool pads from the 70's, other than for the straps, thats why we decided to go with the brown, but we have done other vintage sets with the black binding and it just didnt look "Vintage" the binding was usually a lighter colour brown, but I just cant find the right colour.

[Gregan]

I think the black would contrast too much and not look good. In fact, I recal a pair of Vortek gloves down in brown with the black binding and it looked terrible (IMHO).

[Mitch92]

Hi Scott,

I like the look of the new material. Would you be willing to do a more traditional looking pad with round stuffed side rolls and full wrap around knee rolls and a medium length thigh like the Barrage or Bold in the retro material with updated internals to keep it light? If you add some white felt sticking out the top like the way the old backings were sewn on that would be SIIIIIIICK!!!:eek::cool::D:o

[Scott Battram]

The round rolls wouldnt be a problem, the full wrap knee, I havent done one of those in close to 10 years....

We actually used white material on the back of the vintage set to mimic the old school white felt... certainly white felt wouldnt be the best choice because the backing alone would weigh about a pound or more in felt alone!

[Jim**]

Scott, got back to me... what great customer service. :D
Seeing that he can fullfill all my request.
I am going to be Battram pad owner.
They will be the vintage pad with my own color combo.
Finally, my dream vintage pads will come true.
My order will be placed with the years income tax return.
In a couple months.
Cant wait...
:D

[Mitch92]

The round rolls wouldnt be a problem, the full wrap knee, I havent done one of those in close to 10 years....

We actually used white material on the back of the vintage set to mimic the old school white felt... certainly white felt wouldnt be the best choice because the backing alone would weigh about a pound or more in felt alone!

I didn't mean the whole back of the pad. Just the top to mimic the look around the edges. Old skool look combined with new material weight and function. I would also request white Jenpro on the knee and calf wrap to mimic the white nylon or felt used back in the day. Open toes with toe straps would also be a must.

[Gregan]

Scott could even stich the diamond pattern into the jenpro to mimic the Aeroflex pads. Even put his Battram name on the front in a similar fashion.... They aren't really the same type of retro pads though as the ones that inspired this thread. Just a pair of Fury's with blue and white... or am I missing something?

[Scott Battram]

This stuff is starting to go over like mad! Just had another order for full retro today... with a stripped down leg channel, open toe, with matching gloves...

Clearly all the coments from customers of these is that it is the best retro material out there!

[Old Style 31]

Looking good Scott!

I was just wondering if you can show us some examples of different colors available in this material? I like it, but to me it looks a little dark. My old coopers were definately a lighter brown color. And with the light brown, I was thinking the black trim would look good actually.

[Steven]

Is there anyway you could post more pics of this set? Specifically leg channel pics and some more pics of the catcher.

Thanks

[Gregan]

The glove and blocker are the Nexus catcher. You can see multiple pictures of both of them on their respective product pages on the main battram.com site. The pads are a FURY pad, you can see pics of the FURY pad on it's product page.

The key thing here, is you can get Scott to create any of his models using this new material of his. If you want to have Nexus pads that look retro, just ask him.

[Scott Battram]

I only took the basic shots before shipping them out... I think the owner may be a member here.. Hopefully he can take some more shots when they arrive to him!

Eseentially it is the Fury pad for the back shots of the pads though

[Jim**]

This stuff is starting to go over like mad! Just had another order for full retro today... with a stripped down leg channel, open toe, with matching gloves...

Clearly all the coments from customers of these is that it is the best retro material out there!

Scott,
what are the pros and cons for open toe?
I of course had open toe when i was kid and now have modern pads with closed toe.
Any pics of the open toe pad?
congrats ! and my order will be coming in the first few months of 08!!!
:D
Jim

[Gregan]

Open toe pads will greatly affect rotation and your ability to get your skate blade to make contact with the ice when you're down in butterfly. It also opens up your feet to getting stung more often with shots of the top of your toe cap. I'd stay the hell away from an open toe pad like a rat with the plague.

[Scott Battram]

I tried to talk the gentleman out of the Open toe, but he is a standup goalie and thats what he wants as all his pads have had it... it basically wont be the old tyle open toe, just the horseshoe style open toe like we used to do on the BOLD series line....

[gunga]

Scott, did you determine an upcharge for the retro yet?

I have to read up on your website to figure out what measurements to take, then consult with you to figure out what pads/gloves to order (Hybrid goalie) then add any options and the retro material...

[Gregan]

So I was just thinking about this retro material that Scott has started using... it has better wear resistance then jenpro, it is thinner and lighter... why isn't this material used to create all the jenpro colours as well and used more extensively on goalie gear? Is it simply cost?

[Scott Battram]

Since the source of the fabric comes from a manufacturer who wouldn't have any ties to the sporting goods industry they probably have never seen the need for this material in that end use industry and I am certain they are supplying enough to its intended industry they see no reason to expand, I just stumbled upon this stuff by accident while trying to source an appropriate product or a natural one, but then I thought, using a natural product on a 2008 product would be like stepping back into 1950 and I dont think thats a step in the right direction and this material is 2008 fabric for 2008 gear!

The material is also just too expensive to be used in goal equipment on a regular basis for the normal colours,however there are over 70 colours available in the collection which is great if customers want a flesh tone or some of the other bizarre colours we are asked for from time to time. We also have to do some "stuff" to the material to make it usable in goal gear which again adds to the cost, when its all said and done the cost is over 120.00 per yard, but there isn't anything out there that can touch this stuff for a retro look, its better looking than real leather, more durable, doesn't absorb moisture, doesn't scratch or discolour and has all the benefits of synthetic materials.

The photos of this material do not come close to doing it justice, its something that can really only be appreciated when you can touch and feel and see it in person!

[Gregan]

How much does Jenpro typically cost per yard?

Looks like some of the other custom goalie gear makers are starting to offer "real leather" on their goal gear, following suit of Battram!

[hroark2112]

Looks like some of the other custom goalie gear makers are starting to offer "real leather" on their goal gear, following suit of Battram!


Isn't it ironic....


http://images.eurotuner.com/eventcoverage/160_0507_010z+Volkswagen_GTI+Full_Rear_View.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lovegrove/702162428/

[Gregan]

Yeah... very ironic.

[Vision]

Scott is offering real leather? Must have missed that post.

::m

[Scott Battram]

Before we found the new material we had brought in some real leather to use about 5 months ago,I just didn't feel good about using real leather, it was almost like a regression to do so, then my quest led me to a superior synthetic product that we bring in from outside North America

Last time I used real leather, the year was 1991 or something like that! Its terrible to work with, gets wet, has flaws and variations in the hyde and weighs a ton... nothing like 1930s goal pad material technology on 2008 gear!!

[Gregan]

Scott is offering real leather? Must have missed that post.

::m

Shortly after Scott's announcement that he was using his new found modern retro material, Vortek announced that they were going to be making pads with real leather faces.

It's ironic, because Vortek is the first company to **** down someone's throat for trying to copy them. In further irony, Vortek (the copyright protection hungry company that it is) had the HNIC theme song (which was stolen from the CBC) playing on their website intro up until very recently.

[hroark2112]

Shortly after Scott's announcement that he was using his new found modern retro material, Vortek announced that they were going to be making pads with real leather faces.

It's ironic, because Vortek is the first company to **** down someone's throat for trying to copy them. In further irony, Vortek (the copyright protection hungry company that it is) had the HNIC theme song (which was stolen from the CBC) playing on their website intro up until very recently.

I'm sure that had nothing to do with customer requests, and was 100% an effort to copy Battram (although I think Brian's was doing retro pads before Battram).

Maybe some of you conspiracy freaks just need to realize that, while there is copying/imitating/intentional similarities in gear designs going on, sometimes it's just a response to the customer's requests and not an effort to "steal" someone else's idea. Are you going to bash Sherwood for the retro set they did?? Or maybe it was just what it was....a customer request.

Engage brain BEFORE typing, people!!

[Vision]

Hard to steal something from CBC that they don't own.

Scott announced the use of synthetic, not real leather. Bit of a difference.


::m

[Gregan]

CBC owns the rights to the HNIC song. Their TV show, their song.

[EDIT: Ok, I stand corrected... http://www.hockeytheme.com/default.htm] Regardless, owned by someone else.]

Real Leather vs Synthetic Leather... yup, there is a difference. I'll leave it up to the brains of others to figure out which is the best choice for goalie gear (and to also come up with their own theories behind the respective dates of the announcements).

I don't really have issues with people being influenced by the market and competitors, that's life. I'm totally cool with that. I'm not cool with people bashing others for it, then turning around and doing it themselves (arguable, I'll admit, on a different scale).

Don't worry Hraork, my brain is fully engaged, I just didn't make it clear enough as to what my beef was.

[hroark2112]

I don't really have issues with people being influenced by the market and competitors, that's life. I'm totally cool with that. I'm not cool with people bashing others for it, then turning around and doing it themselves (arguable, I'll admit, on a different scale).

Don't worry Hraork, my brain is fully engaged, I just didn't make it clear enough as to what my beef was.

OK....I'm going to just come out & say this then...

There's a HUGE difference between getting your hands on someone's pad, taking it apart, making one just like it and slapping your name on it and someone who takes an obviously popular idea like retro material and offering it as an option.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Gregan]

Yes, I would agree there is a big difference. I'm with you on that one.

[Punisher]

OK....I'm going to just come out & say this then...

There's a HUGE difference between getting your hands on someone's pad, taking it apart, making one just like it and slapping your name on it and someone who takes an obviously popular idea like retro material and offering it as an option.

Wouldn't you agree?

I actually can't think of a company ,in any branch, that doesn't do that.
It's called reversed engineering, the ultimate goal of this would be to see, learn and improve.
The last often gets forgotten.

There is nothing wrong with improving an existing concept, if we didn't do that we would still be rocking the deerhair stuffed leather pillows.

It however scares me that some would go back to real leather, reversed engineering is good, reversed doing is pretty bad and brings no evolution.

BTW, to be completely correct: viper first announced that you could get his pads in real leather then vortek followed.

Scott says it's doable in real leather, but went on a search for a better (evolution) material. I'm sure he could do it and would, but why use that if you can get something better?

Pun.

[hroark2112]

I actually can't think of a company ,in any branch, that doesn't do that.
It's called reversed engineering, the ultimate goal of this would be to see, learn and improve.
The last often gets forgotten.

There is nothing wrong with improving an existing concept, if we didn't do that we would still be rocking the deerhair stuffed leather pillows.

It however scares me that some would go back to real leather, reversed engineering is good, reversed doing is pretty bad and brings no evolution.

BTW, to be completely correct: viper first announced that you could get his pads in real leather then vortek followed.

Scott says it's doable in real leather, but went on a search for a better (evolution) material. I'm sure he could do it and would, but why use that if you can get something better?

Pun.


There's a BIG difference between research/engineering and a flat out copy. I won't name names or examples, but it does happen and you know it.

Pads were made out of real leather WAY before Viper made their announcement. A hundred years or so.

Everyone has their opinions on the best materials to use. I'm sure Scott, Viper and Vortek all have reasons they consider valid in their minds. I think it will look cool, although I have no plans to order a set in leather.

[Punisher]

There's a BIG difference between research/engineering and a flat out copy. I won't name names or examples, but it does happen and you know it.

Pads were made out of real leather WAY before Viper made their announcement. A hundred years or so.

Everyone has their opinions on the best materials to use. I'm sure Scott, Viper and Vortek all have reasons they consider valid in their minds. I think it will look cool, although I have no plans to order a set in leather.


i think you misunderstood my intention about the leather pads,

Viper announced they would make new pads in leather, then vortek.

not trying to be an ass, but if someone is claiming it was an other way this is what i observed.

About reversed engineering, how many things do get copied on daily base?
that is why i said step 3 often gets left out (improving)
But to reflect this for example to Vortek (without dissing them)
didn't they take over the company and improved an existing line?
(i could be wrong here, but i read something in that thread with the bad sealing of the V5 gloves) they copied the previous owners idea and improved it. (they bought it which makes coping legal ;))
others aren't so nice to pay for what they copy, that is true

i also know a lot of companies that do copy, hockey wise.
it saddens me but frankly i don't care that much, i'm someone who knows what he wants, a lot of people just like me will order with a company that will allow them to ask for all these mods as others don't want to do any mods. it all depends on how far a builder of gear wants to go for his customers.
Me for example, if i'm paying for something i'm going to make damn sure it is made to my specs.

to each his own i always say, truth is all the gear is just that. Gear, it's the (wo)man in the gear that does the performance.

pun.

[Vision]

I for one had not heard or read that Viper was offering real leather as an option on their pads but I don't believe that anyone was saying that Vortek was the first to do this, just that it was now an option.

This might be the most asinine statement that I have ever read. How can a company improving their product line be considered copying? It can't.

As for the "bad sealing", it was established that it was an error in lacing a lone glove, an issue that was offered to be fixed at no cost to the owner of the glove.

::m

[Punisher]

This might be the most asinine statement that I have ever read. How can a company improving their product line be considered copying? It can't.
::m


No offence but you are telling someone who is head of an R&D that copying doesn't happen or is bad?
I'll return the favor of finding that an utterly insane statement as well.

Read my statements again, copying to improve (reversed engineering) is basically done every day.
but companies get lazy and copy without the improvement(copy to copy), they let their good name or business position play out to hide the flaws, i know this because i work in a highly competitive area and have worked in companies that blindly copied others (i can safely say it doesn't last, for when i left that company about 2 years ago and recently got the news that they gone under) i'm not talking small company either (a profit of 56 million € isn't a small potato, they had the second position in europe and 3th worldwide in the market)

I''l try and state it more correctly for the record.

When one looks at what the compition is bringing and can get his hands on that item to actually see and feel how it works (reversed engineering) only to see how one can improve their own products to outclass the compition,
only then are we taking about doing a good job, blantly copying is a terrible sin (yet i believe everybody has the moving toe bridge these days, even if it's just an option. (that should make smith feel pretty happy, right?))

If no company had ever had the urge to improve a goalie pad, then we would still be playing with the first generation of pads.
the goalie pad is in existence for almost a 100 years, of course there will be copying!
In the seventies and early eighties almost all pads where alike aside from the name on it. When a few companies like D&R decided to bring out that weird pad of theirs they actually gave the compition a boost to wake up and start experimenting
It could just as easily gone different, imaging that the management would reply to its designers by saying, " change the pad, why the hell would we change the pad, it works fine, no need to fix something that isn't broken"
In belgium there is a saying
"better stolen good, then thought of badly."
Im not sure if it excists in a simular form in the US
but that covers nicely what a lot of companies do.

yet to come back to the leather in modern day pads, my personal opinion is that it isn't a good evolution of thinking to bring back a product that has been improved beyond it's own positive points
Leather is organic and therefor it rotts, sucks up water, is high maintenance, heavy and labor intensive. all these things you do not find in
it's succesor jenpro (or whatever name it has from it's company)
the only positive thing about real leather is it's durability. but the pro's don't weigh up to the con's.
Now be ware that this is my personal view of why real leather is no longer functional in modern day gear. I do not speak for others, just my point of view from a R&D perspective.

If i in some way insulted you, then i'm sorry about that.
But we all are equal to our right to speak our minds.

Lode

ps,

about the glove, i had not followed it up so i stand corrected.

[goal28]

Ahh .. See the Dubs ..!!. Think the next set of pads I order will have V-dub logos through out.

[Jim**]

As for the "bad sealing", it was established that it was an error in lacing a lone glove, an issue that was offered to be fixed at no cost to the owner of the glove.

::m

I knew vortek would find the issue and correct.. i had a feeling it was fluke issue and not a big deal. kudos for investigating and fixing the issue.
outstanding customer service!

[Banquo]

So I'm curious if it is possible to make the new Nexus pads look like the Fury pads you did in the retro material - knee rolls and fake straps in front?
Michael

[Mitch92]

I think a pad like the new Goalie Monkey Koho 700 with added face straps in the faux leather would be perfect! I think the pad has to have some rolls on the face and wrap around knee rolls to look Old Skool!:cool:

[Scott Battram]

Yes we can do that with the Nexus pads as well.